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vpfw rng

Printed From: VideoPoker.com
Category: Video Poker
Forum Name: Video Poker Software
Forum Discription: Discuss video poker programs for the home user
URL: http://www.videopoker.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1355
Printed Date: 01 Nov 2014 at 7:55am


Topic: vpfw rng
Posted By: scorpio2
Subject: vpfw rng
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2008 at 1:25pm
does the bob dancer vpfw computer machines have an rng,like casino machines?like bob says you should get a royal flush in 43,000 hands,but on the 100 play i can play 430 hands,and still don't get a rf,maybe that's only in casinos?



Replies:
Posted By: Webman
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2008 at 1:41pm
As long as you have the difficulty set to "mixed" then it should match up fairly closely to the casinos.

You should see royal flushes an average of 1/40,000 hands or so, but that is only an average.  You could go 100,000 hands and not see one, then see three close together. That's all part of life with the RNG.


Posted By: details
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2008 at 3:28pm

I thought rng stood for random number generator. If that is true then it would very close if the casino machine uses rng.



Posted By: scorpio2
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2008 at 3:44pm
that's like the progressive vp jokers wild,sometimes gets up to $150,000 +,do you divide the 100 million hands by the 200 machines in 12 casinos,or just by the 20 machines in each casino?


Posted By: EDC1977
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2008 at 7:21pm
  Does the VPFW software contain versions of practice for the newer games so to speak IE; spin, MS,STP,chase the royal,super aces or trade-up? Some of them are neat to play having only played a few hands of each. I'm sure over a period of time, those games will bite you as they have to be high variance, regardless of how well you are playing them.

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ED da Cat


Posted By: BOOPSAHOY
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2008 at 6:24pm
VPFW has multistrike,and STP,also spinpoker-no trade up or chase the royal.


Posted By: EDC1977
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2008 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by BOOPSAHOY

VPFW has multistrike,and STP,also spinpoker-no trade up or chase the royal.
  Thank you Boops, the flowers are in the mail.  Wink

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ED da Cat


Posted By: BOOPSAHOY
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2008 at 7:45pm
you are welcome! And thanks for the flowersWink


Posted By: scorpio2
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2008 at 3:54pm
yeah,i was curios and wondered if when you play 100 games at a time on vpfw,does each game have an rng,or one for all,and could you expect a rf for every 400 plays on the 100 play vp?


Posted By: shadowman
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2008 at 6:50pm
I doubt anyone here knows the answer to your question since we didn't write the software. However, I assume it works something like this ... Each "line" is initialized when the machine is "powered up" with what is called a seed. This seed is used each time that particular line calls the RNG routine. The next random number (which determines the next card) is selected based on this seed. This process is repeated for each line separately, hence there is nothing shared between the lines except the held cards and the RNG program itself.
 
Since all lines are random you should see the same statistical breakdown of every possible result. That should lead to a RF every 400 hands or so on average. However, keep in mind that many of the royals occur as a result of being dealt 4RF. These DEALT hands occur on average around 2800 hands. So, it would be 280K total hands played on average between these chances. This is why multi-play results are significantly biased by the value of your dealt hands.


Posted By: New2vp
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2008 at 11:58pm
Using 9/6 Jacks or Better as an example on single line with perfect play, the royal flushes come in these varieties:
 
Dealt 5       6%
Dealt 4     31%
Dealt 3     40%
Dealt 2     20%
Dealt 1       3%
Dealt 0     0.3%
 
And you see one royal out of every 40,391 hands on average.
 
It is tempting then to think that on 100-play you will see one every 404 hands on average, but you will only see them about once every 546 hands, about 26% less than expected unless you don't factor in what follows.
 
15% of the hands that contain royals contain more than one, sometimes many more.  To some it may be surprising that 37% of the royals in 100-play are from hands that contain multiple royals.  For that reason, you have to be a bit more patient than looking for them every 404 hands.
 
The breakdown for 100-play is:
 
63% of royals are from hands with exactly 1 royal
11% of royals are from hands with 2 royals
  9% of royals are from hands with 3 royals
  6% of royals are from hands with 4 royals
  3% of royals are from hands with 5 royals
  1% of royals are from hands with 6 royals
  1% of royals are from hands with from 7-99 royals
  6% from hands with 100 royals
 
Note that this does not indicate that hands with one royal occur only 10 times as often as the dealt royal hand that ends in 100 royals (63/6).  Hands with one royal occur more than 1000 times as often.  But the 100-royal hands add 100 times more royals to the population than the hands with 1 royal, so they end up being 6% of the total. 


Posted By: scorpio2
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2008 at 2:50pm

i see,so it would maybe be easier to play progressives to get to the rf quicker,if it hits your machine,or you could play the many hands alone,as dancer does,forcing it to hit?



Posted By: Eduardo
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2008 at 2:53pm
Playing a progressive would only make it hit sooner if you changed your strategy, right?

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Eduaaaaardo!


Posted By: shadowman
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2008 at 4:14pm
That's right, Eduardo. The odds of hitting RFs are not changed simply because it's a progressive. You will get more RFs by changing the cards you hold.
 
For example, take K(QT)64 where the QT is suited ... most of the time in bonus games the proper hold is the unsuited KQ, however, once a progressive increases to a particular point (game dependent) it becomes a better stragegy choice to go with QT. This also applies to 3RF over a high pairs, etc. By making these kind of strategy changes one's chances for the RF go up. 


Posted By: scorpio2
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2008 at 1:03pm
I THINK I GET IT,SO on a 100 play machine,you would have to play individual lines 43,000 times on each line,not just 430 times for all lines,to get the average rf to hit?


Posted By: shadowman
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2008 at 3:34pm
Both are equivalent. You should average out to one RF for every 43K hands no matter what line they are on. Over time, assuming you play millions of 100 play hands it should eventually average out to 43K hands on each line.


Posted By: bigsteve5273@yahoo.c
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2008 at 5:01am
I learn something every day on this site.  40% of RF's are achieved by being dealt 3 cards of the five over 4cards dealt which gives us only 30% of the RF's received.  If I had thought about this carefully I may have seen it.  One interesting thing is that when playing 100 play, we are actually playing only one hand once the cards are dealt but we are playing 100 chances on that hand unless you dump all 5 cards in which case we are playing 100 different hands again.  I've often thought why not have a 43,000 play machine for those of us who suffer from supposably infrequent RF's.  Finally, I play to win using computer generated strategies. That is entirely different than playing only for the most royals.


Posted By: New2vp
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2008 at 1:10am
Steve, you'd need a lot of royals to play even 5 minutes with that 43,000-play machine unless your first couple hits were lucky.  You would still go through some droughts.  For any sequence of 18 hands, you would have a 10% chance of seeing NO royals at all.  On average, you would see one or more royals only every 8.4 hands.
 
73% of the time (like when you hold a pair) it would be impossible to hit any royal.  Though you would virtually always hit royals when holding 3 or 4 to the royal, 7% of the time you would strike out on all 43000 hands when holding 2 to the royal; 79% of the time when holding a single high card; and 89% or 92% of the time when drawing 5 new cards (depending on whether you discarded a ten).  All this is based on 9/6 Jacks or Better computer-perfect strategy.
 
I had some extra time to calculate this useless trivia since both of my picks (plus my chances at the office pool) were getting blown out in March Madness' Final Four Saturday evening.  With 3 to the royal, you would be in the range of 24-56 royals 99% of the time; starting with four, the interval would be 838-992 royals. 


Posted By: MikeA
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2008 at 7:38am
NEW2VP..How 'bout them Jayhawks!  Never thought they would get past NC. Even though the current players on the J-Hawk team never played for Roy Williams, you'll never see another "grudge match" much more intense than that one last night <LOL>  Williams left KU a few years ago to take the position at NC.  Obviously, a lot of folks in Kansas were not pleased with that decision!

I may have to get me a ball-marker with the KU logo.  Okay....I'm ready for the jokes...but that is what they are called....mark your Golf Ball on the green!


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Posted By: shadowman
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2008 at 8:33am
Not to mention the cost of the 43K lines. Even a penny machine at .05 a hand comes out to $2150 per hand.
 
Now for a few other thoughts. Ermm 
 
The royals would only be worth $40. The screen with 43K hands spread out on it would take an ENORMOUS display. I don't think my eyes could pick out much of anything. However, I assume they'd use another technique where they would just summarize the hands and you could select a set of hands to look at if you wanted to. And, of course, all those W2Gs for any dealt winners.


Posted By: shadowman
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2008 at 8:36am
Originally posted by MikeA

NEW2VP..How 'bout them Jayhawks!  Never thought they would get past NC. Even though the current players on the J-Hawk team never played for Roy Williams, you'll never see another "grudge match" much more intense than that one last night <LOL>  Williams left KU a few years ago to take the position at NC.  Obviously, a lot of folks in Kansas were not pleased with that decision!

I may have to get me a ball-marker with the KU logo.  Okay....I'm ready for the jokes...but that is what they are called....mark your Golf Ball on the green!
 
Back in Febrary I noticed Kansas had the lowest odds of any team for winning the national title at one particular sportsbook (and Memphis was still undefeated at this time). Maybe they knew something ...


Posted By: bigsteve5273@yahoo.c
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2008 at 10:55am
Thanks for the statistics and info , New2VP.  I regret that your team didn't hold up but am glad you spent the time to run off the data.  The 43000 play thought experiment has been on my mind since I first came across 100 play .   The stats certainly keep in perspective the house edge and how difficult it is to get and stay ahead even with only a 10% chance of no RF's in any 18 hand sequence.  That's about 3/4 of a million hands with no RF.   Next Shadowman's excellent reply got me to thinking that with the W2-G's the IRS is actually betting with the house.  Good luck all with the the finals. 



Posted By: New2vp
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2008 at 11:13am
Originally posted by MikeA

NEW2VP..How 'bout them Jayhawks! 
 
They looked great and I can see the incentive that Kansas had against NC for "stealing" their coach...even if he did leave them to go home.  I didn't watch much national basketball this year until the tournament and must admit that I didn't give Kansas much of a chance in this game...mostly based on their performance against Davidson.  I guess Davidson either played a series of great games or was seriously underrated.  Memphis has looked unstoppable in several of the games, so it should be a great game to watch Monday. 
 
Once the Big 10 bowed out so disgracefully, I really didn't have a rooting interest except for trying to win a pool.  In a performance that most of you would have rightfully ignored, I was happy for next year that the Buckeyes won the right to be called the 65th best team in the country (or is it 66th now that there is that extra play-in game in the NCAA?).
 
Good luck to Kansas.  I'll help you in pulling for them.
 
 


Posted By: bigsteve5273@yahoo.c
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2008 at 6:44am
How about them Jayhawks?  wooohoo!


Posted By: scorpio2
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2008 at 2:29pm

so,i guess that would be like in the optimum play vp book,as opposed to bob dancers theory,that it's better to play for the win every time,to extend your playing time with small paybacks,which add up.like holding a k,q instead of a suited q,10,so you would get a higher payback.



Posted By: scorpio2
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2008 at 11:51am
who makes,and sets the rng's?


Posted By: Webman
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2008 at 12:38pm
Not sure what you mean by "sets," scorpio. Software developers develop the RNGs for their programs or use existing random number functions sometimes built into the programming language.  I'm not sure which method VPW uses, but it is programmed in .NET so the RNG is built either by Microsoft or a custom script. There are a lot of different algorithms available online if you're interested in how these random numbers are arrived at.


Posted By: cddenver
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2008 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by Webman

I'm not sure which method VPW uses, but it is programmed in .NET so the RNG is built either by Microsoft or a custom script. 
 
I can't think of any reason why VPFW would use anything other than the standard Microsoft RNG.  There's no incentive to "beat" VPFW (no money involved), so there would be no reason for the VPFW developers to write their own RNG, or even to use the advanced Microsoft RNG which is intended for cryptographic use (password generation).  I tested the standard Microsoft RNG many years ago against one of the randomness standards we have here in CO, and it passed.
 
I'm sure that there's info somewhere on the Internet with details of the Microsoft RNG.  I've never checked.


Posted By: scorpio2
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2008 at 4:29pm
ok,i read in one of bob dancers old articles,where the rng is from itg,and another one,but very close to the casino rng's.


Posted By: EDC1977
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2008 at 10:00am
Originally posted by scorpio2

ok,i read in one of bob dancers old articles,where the rng is from itg,and another one,but very close to the casino rng's.
IGT supplies a good majority(monopoly?) of the casinos with VP and slots. RNG chips are onboard but it's up to the slot tech to adjust paybacks and monitor the RNG for proper function. Gaming control boards also make sure things stay on the up and up. 

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ED da Cat


Posted By: scorpio2
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2008 at 10:24am
eprom?


Posted By: Webman
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2008 at 12:19pm
EPROM? Are you still talking about VPW, or casino machines?


Posted By: cddenver
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2008 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by EDC1977

IGT supplies a good majority(monopoly?) of the casinos with VP and slots. RNG chips are onboard but it's up to the slot tech to adjust paybacks and monitor the RNG for proper function. Gaming control boards also make sure things stay on the up and up. 
 
I've always wondered whether game chips are ordered with specific paytables, or if they're set in the casino.  Is that true, Ed?  Certainly cheaper to allow paytables to be set by the casino instead of having to order new chips each time.  If set by the casino, you'd think that now and again they'd make an "oopsie" and have a RF set to 40,000 or something like that.  Maybe the software is smart enough to catch that stuff.


Posted By: Webman
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2008 at 1:54pm
I believe there are a wide variety of pay tables for the casino to choose from, but likely not full customization. I'm sure they have details such as expected return, etc for each.


Posted By: EDC1977
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2008 at 2:02pm
CD, from what I gathered after reading a couple of articles,one in LV Advisor and another in LV Review-Journal, they are allowed to set paybacks according to their schedules and are also allowed to set some to be"loose" although the NGCB doesn't like to use that term loose but rather"generous"(whats the stinking difference whether  its loose or generous?) One LV casino had advertised loosest slots and the NGCB made them cease the ads immediately and fined them 50K for using that term. Good to know some are actually loose!Big%20smile

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ED da Cat


Posted By: MikeA
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2008 at 2:03pm
I'm not sure either.  I have heard that there is supposedly a thirty day process a casino is supposed to go through in Vegas when changing paytables.  All very formal with the gaming commission involved.

I've seen a lot of "service people" pulling up maintenance screens but the ones I've talked to would not disclose much if anything about what they were capable of doing with those screens.  No doubt, many of them were diagnostic.


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Posted By: EDC1977
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2008 at 2:09pm
They aren't allowed to tinker with the RNG chip and matter of factly, it's somewhat sealed in place so the Gaming inspectors can tell if its been tampered with. Only the paybacks are adjusted. GCB can pull a surprise inspection to make sure everything is jake.

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ED da Cat


Posted By: scorpio2
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2008 at 3:56pm
i guess the eproms can be manipulatd with ultraviolet light,but that may be in home vpw games only.


Posted By: cddenver
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2008 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by scorpio2

i guess the eproms can be manipulatd with ultraviolet light,but that may be in home vpw games only.
 
I think the innards of the machines are well protected.  I saw a documentary once that showed a tester using a taser on a machine while it was running, and it didn't miss a beat.


Posted By: oej719
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2008 at 7:41pm
How about strobe lights?

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The singer Dinger man.
Slayer of poker scams
The Oprah of oil


Posted By: EDC1977
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2008 at 3:52am
Originally posted by oej719

How about strobe lights?
  They used something similar like a monkey paw to trick the machine into paying out a jackpot. That was old technology and since been updated so all the tricks don't work like before. Casino surveillance is everywhere now so its foolish to attempt anyways.

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ED da Cat


Posted By: scorpio2
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2008 at 12:17pm
oh i wasn't thinking of cheating,i love casinos,staying in them for free,it's for me,just take my social security check,and head for the casino!


Posted By: bigsteve5273@yahoo.c
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2008 at 5:24am
Early one morning after the cash was pulled I noticed a high roller VP machine at a downtown casino whose payback was displayed by spreadsheet on the screen and the access door was ajar.  When the  financial information was revealed it doubly confirmed that the paytable on the machine made it less than a good gamble. 


Posted By: MikeA
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2008 at 7:30am
Originally posted by bigsteve5273@yahoo.c

Early one morning after the cash was pulled I noticed a high roller VP machine at a downtown casino whose payback was displayed by spreadsheet on the screen and the access door was ajar.  When the  financial information was revealed it doubly confirmed that the paytable on the machine made it less than a good gamble. 


I think you might be equally shocked to see the "financial" information on a machine with paytables that are Positive Expectation.  All of the hype by the casinos about having to cut the pay tables to stay profitable is just that Hype.  Until the players learn to use the Strategy that gives them the ability to utilize those positive paytables, the casinos have nothing to worry about.

And considering the commitment that most people have when it comes to spending the time and effort to play the games with near perfection, I don't think the casinos have very much to be concerned about!


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Posted By: shadowman
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2008 at 7:33am
Righ you are, Mike. Once I walked behind a positive payback machine with the coin-in, coin-out displayed. The return came out around 93%.


Posted By: New2vp
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2008 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by shadowman

Righ you are, Mike. Once I walked behind a positive payback machine with the coin-in, coin-out displayed. The return came out around 93%.
Wow, maybe more people read that stuff about pattern detection and special plays than we think!


Posted By: oej719
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2008 at 6:48pm
Yeah right. But how many really believe it.

-------------
The singer Dinger man.
Slayer of poker scams
The Oprah of oil


Posted By: bigsteve5273@yahoo.c
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2008 at 5:44am

Quote,
 "All of the hype by the casinos about having to cut the pay tables to stay profitable is just that Hype.  Until the players learn to use the Strategy that gives them the ability to utilize those positive paytables, the casinos have nothing to worry about."  Unquote.
      Upon further reflection the above  is exactly what the info on the open VP machine suggested.   Whereas I'm not comfortable playing higher limit VP there are plenty who are and don't play well.  Shocked
 



Posted By: wilsonwilson
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2008 at 10:14am
I once saw the pay table and pay history of a pot o gold  ...wow.    payback can be set at 30 40 50 60 percent   ...The only time I ever left a pog ahead was with a jackpot....never any credit build



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