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Topic: Triple Wheel Poker Insight for Recreational Player Post Reply
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alpax
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Quote alpax Replybullet Topic: Triple Wheel Poker Insight for Recreational Player
    Posted: Yesterday at 6:10pm
Disclaimer: Triple Wheel Poker might be one of the most ambiguous specialty game. I had interest in this game long time ago, but never got around to fully grasping the game.

There are different types of specialty video poker games out on the market.

There are ones that offer multipliers (Super Times Pay, Hot Roll Poker)
There are ones that help you achieve bigger payout hands (Dreamcard, Flip and Pay)
There are ones that allow you to pick your prize (Ultimate 4 of a Kind)
There are ones that allow you to spin wheels (Wheel Poker, Build a Wheel Poker)
There are ones that are rewarding based on the cards that get dealt (Deal Draw Poker)

Triple Wheel Poker has been released on casino floors for a couple years now and it is unique variant that combines the last two elements into a single game. It may be a worthwhile skill for some recreational players to be aware of games that are focused on benefitting the player for good dealt hands. I have not paid much attention to these, but might come in handy one day so it is good to know ahead of time.

No card holding strategy adjustments are necessary to play this game



Part 1 – Overview of the odds of being dealt a poker hand

As most players are aware, there are a total of 2598960 combinations to draw 5 cards out of 52 card deck (52 choose 5).

Acknowledgement: I give credit to the Wizard of Odds (Wizard/JB). I got these figures from their Double Pay (aka Deal Draw) analysis page.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/double-pay/

Number of Possible Outcomes for Normal Video Poker

Royal Flush – 4 outcomes – 1 in 649740
Straight Flush – 36 outcomes – 1 in 72193.333
Four of a Kind (Includes all forms of kicker quads) – 624 outcomes – 1 in 4165
Full House – 3744 outcomes – 1 in 694.17
Flush – 5108 outcomes – 1 in 512.31
Straight – 10200 outcomes – 1 in 254.8
Three of a Kind – 54912 outcomes – 1 in 47.36
Two Pairs – 123552 outcomes – 1 in 21.05
Jacks or Better – 336880 outcomes – 1 in 7.715
Nothing – 2036815 outcomes – 1 in 1.276

Number of Possible Outcomes for Deuces Wild Video Poker

Royal Flush No Deuces – 4 outcomes – 1 in 649740
4 Deuces – 48 outcomes – 1 in 54145
Royal Flush With Deuce – 480 outcomes – 1 in 5414.5
Five of a Kind – 624 outcomes – 1 in 4165
Straight Flush – 2068 outcomes – 1 in 1256.75
Four of a Kind – 31552 outcomes – 1 in 82.37
Full House – 12672 outcomes – 1 in 205.09
Flush – 14472 outcomes – 1 in 179.59
Straight – 62232 outcomes – 1 in 41.76
Three of a Kind – 355080 outcomes – 1 in 7.32
Nothing – 2119728 outcomes – 1 in 1.226


Part 2 – The odds of being able to spin the wheel

Normal Video Poker Variants



Bronze Wheel – 3 of a Kind
Possible Values: 50, 60, 75, 80, 100, 125, 200, 300, 600, 800, 1000
54880 Combinations
54880 / 2598960 = 0.02112 or 1 in 47.357

Silver Wheel – Straight and Flush
Possible Values: 100, 125, 150, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 750, 1000, 2000, 4000
10200 + 5108 = 15308 Combinations
15308 / 2598960 = 0.00589 or 1 in 169.778

Gold Wheel – Full House and 4 of a Kind
Possible Values: 250, 300, 400, 500, 600, 750, 1000, 2000, 4000, 5000, 10000
624 + 3744 = 4368 Combinations
4368 / 2598960 – 1 in 595

Odds of Any Wheel Spin
54880 + 15308 + 4368 = 74556 Combinations
74521 / 2598960 = 0.028687 or 1 in 34.859

Deuces Wild Video Poker Variants



Bronze Wheel – Straight, Flush, and Full House
Possible Values: 50, 60, 75, 80, 100, 125, 200, 300, 600, 800, 1000
62232 + 14472 + 12672 = 89376 combinations
89376 / 2598960 = 0.034389 or 1 in 29.79

Silver Wheel – 4 of a Kind
Possible Values: 100, 125, 150, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 750, 1000, 2000, 4000
31552 combinations
31552 / 2598960 = 0.01214 or 1 in 82.371

Gold Wheel – Royal Flush With Deuce, 5 of a Kind, and Straight Flush
Possible Values: 250, 300, 400, 500, 600, 750, 1000, 2000, 4000, 5000, 10000
480 + 624 + 2068 = 3172 combinations
3172 / 2598960 = 0.00122 or 1 in 819.344

Odds of Any Wheel Spin
89376 + 31552 + 3172 = 124100 Combinations
124100 / 2598960 = 0.04775 or 1 in 20.9425


Part 3 – Ambiguous Aspect #1: The Wheel Spin returns can differ by game variant and pay schedule

There is an ambiguous situation for this game, despite there are equal odds to being dealt the hand to initialize the bonus wheel spin, the possible return can be different by game and pay schedule configurations. To be aware of the payouts of Triple Wheel Poker, GOLD membership is needed on this site for the player to be aware how much or how little the impact of the Wheel Spin will have on the return above the base game.

Normal Payout to Bonus Payout with its difference

Exhibit 1 – Bonus Poker Deluxe



7/5 Bonus Poker Deluxe – 96.253% to 96.710% (+0.457%)
8/5 Bonus Poker Deluxe – 97.400% to 97.530% (+0.130%)
8/6 Bonus Poker Deluxe - 98.493% to 98.884% (+0.391%)

Exhibit 2 – Double Double Bonus



Note: The most popular video poker game variant has the least amount of incentive to play Triple Wheel Poker. Probably casino operators are confident that people will play DDB no matter how good or bad it is.

7/5 Double Double Bonus – 95.712% to 96.021% (+0.309%)
8/5 Double Double Bonus – 96.786% to 96.789% (+0.003%)
9/5 Double Double Bonus – 97.873% to 97.884% (+0.011%)
The other 9/5 DDB you see lands on high values frequently

Exhibit 3 – Jacks or Better



Note: The 7/5 Jacks or Better has a worse return from playing the Bonus Feature

7/5 Jacks or Better – 96.147% to 96.000% (-0.147%)
8/5 Jacks or Better – 97.298% to 97.456% (+0.158%)
9/5 Jacks or Better – 98.450% to 98.853% (+0.403%)

Exhibit 4 – Deuces Wild



Note: Much more frequent to spin the Bronze and Silver Wheels, a nice return addition to the base game

25/16/13 Colorado DW – 96.765% to 97.683% (+0.918%)
20/12/10 Fooler DW – 97.579% to 97.778% (+0.199%)

Part 4 – Ambiguous Aspect #2: Projecting the Average of the Wheel Spin amounts for sample games

To enable the Wheel Spin feature, there is an additional cost of 2 credits per line played and the entire number of lines have to be played.

3 Play = 3 x (5 + 2) = 21 Credits per Round
5 Play = 5 x (5 + 2) = 35 Credits per Round
10 Play = 10 x (5 + 2) = 70 Credits per Round

To derive the impact of the Bonus feature, the player must know the original payout and the overall game payouts

Sample 1 – The highest returning normal game, 8/6 Bonus Deluxe

With the Bonus Feature, the return is at 98.884%. For every 7 credit wager the player gets 6.92188 credits in return.

.98884 x 7 = 6.92188

The normal game accounts for 5 out of the 7 credits. At 98.493% return, the base video poker game returns 4.92465 credits.

.98493 x 5 = 4.92465

That leaves just 1.99723 credits returned by the Bonus Feature from the overall return

6.92188 - 4.92465 = 1.99723

Bronze Ratio = 595 / 47.357 = 12.564 Bronze Spins per 1 Gold Spin
Silver Ratio = 595 / 169.778 = 3.505 Silver Spins per 1 Gold Spin

To theoretically get the average Wheel Spin value amount for every 595 Spins it will be

12.564 x <Value of Bronze Wheel> + 3.505 x <Value of Silver Wheel> + <Value of Gold Wheel> = 595 * 1.99723 = 1188.352 Credits Awarded Per Line Played

The ambiguous part in this is how much of the 1188.352 Credits is divided up for the Bronze, Silver, and Gold. If this part was exactly known, it would be possible to know the exact average of the return of each wheel type.

For example, it can be split 40/30/30, 30/20/50, 50/25/25 or any possible distribution for as long as it adds up to 100%. A higher allocation to the Bronze Wheel will allow the player to stay in the game longer with their bankroll.

Assumption that the allocation is divided up evenly (33.3% apiece for each wheel) it will be 1188.352 / 3 = 396.117 Credits for each wheel every 595 spins.

Bronze Wheel Values based on 1 Gold Wheel Spin Cycle

12.564 x <Value of Bronze Wheel> = 396.117
<Value of Bronze Wheel> = 31.528 Credits per Line

3-Line = 31.528 x 3 = 94.584 Credits per Spin
5-Line = 31.528 x 5 = 157.64 Credits per Spin
10-Line = 31.528 x 10 = 315.28 Credits per Spin

Silver Wheel Values based on 1 Gold Wheel Spin Cycle

3.505 x <Value of Silver Wheel> = 396.117
<Value of Silver Wheel> = 113.015 Credits per Line

3-Line = 113.015 x 3 = 339.045 Credits per Spin
5-Line = 113.015 x 5 = 565.075 Credits per Spin
10-Line = 113.015 x 10 = 1130.15 Credits per Spin

Gold Wheel Values based on an average Spin Cycle

396.117 Credits is the Value of the Gold Wheel

3-Line = 396.117 x 3 = 1188.351 Credits per Spin
5-Line = 396.117 x 5 = 1980.585 Credits per Spin
10-Line = 396.117 x 10 = 3961.17 Credits per Spin

As theoretically expected, the payouts are larger for a 10-Line bonus






Sample 2 – A Deuces Wild variant, 20/12/10 Fooler Deuces Wild

20/12/10 Fooler DW – 97.579% to 97.778% (+0.199%)

With the Bonus Feature, the return is at 97.778%. For every 7 credit wager the player gets 6.84446 credits in return.

.97778 x 7 = 6.84446

The normal game accounts for 5 out of the 7 credits. At 97.579% return, the base video poker game returns 4.92465 credits.

.97579 x 5 = 4.87895

That leaves just 1.99723 credits returned by the Bonus Feature from the overall return

6.84446 - 4.87895 = 1.96551

The Gold Wheel happens the least frequent at 1 per 819.344 rounds, need to see the ratio of Bronze Spins (at 1 in 29.79) as well as Silver Spins (at 1 in 82.371)

Bronze Ratio = 819.344 / 29.79 = 27.504 Bronze Spins per 1 Gold Spin
Silver Ratio = 819.344 / 82.371= 9.947 Silver Spins per 1 Gold Spin

To theoretically get the average Wheel Spin value amount for every 819.344 Spins it will be

27.504 x <Value of Bronze Wheel> + 2.765 x <Value of Silver Wheel> + <Value of Gold Wheel> = 819.344 * 1.96551 = 1610.4288 Credits Awarded Per Line Played

If 1610.4288 Credits is divided up for the Bronze, Silver, and Gold Wheels, evenly it will be 1610.4288 / 3 = 536.8096 Credits for each wheel every 819.344 spins.

Bronze Wheel Values based on 1 Gold Wheel Spin Cycle

27.504 x <Value of Bronze Wheel> = 536.8096
<Value of Bronze Wheel> = 19.518 Credits per Line

3-Line = 19.518 x 3 = 58.554 Credits per Spin
5-Line = 19.518 x 5 = 97.59 Credits per Spin
10-Line = 19.518 x 10 = 195.18 Credits per Spin

Silver Wheel Values based on 1 Gold Wheel Spin Cycle

9.947 x <Value of Silver Wheel> = 536.8096
<Value of Silver Wheel> = 53.967 Credits per Line

3-Line = 53.967 x 3 = 161.901 Credits per Spin
5-Line = 53.967 x 5 = 269.835 Credits per Spin
10-Line = 53.967 x 10 = 539.67 Credits per Spin

Gold Wheel Values based on an average Spin Cycle

536.81 Credits is the Value of the Gold Wheel

3-Line = 536.8096 x 3 = 1610.4288 Credits per Spin
5-Line = 536.8096 x 5 = 2684.048 Credits per Spin
10-Line = 536.8096 x 10 = 5368.1 Credits per Spin

Part 5 – Suggested possible reasons that a Recreational player might consider this game

If a player is at a casino where sub-99% return games are available, this is a considerable game to play. The extra 2 credits per line will be returned less, but it will still increase the payout for most games overall.

All Wheel based players should be used to having patience to see their bankroll drop quicker than usual in between the times they spin the wheel. This is not a game for those with a tight stomach.

Large jackpot-like payouts are possible in a short session that recreational players yearn for. A few hundred spins can provide a chance at a Silver Wheel spin where there are payouts of 2000 (Aces with a Kicker) or 4000 (Royal Flush) credits, or even about a 50% chance at spinning the Gold Wheel.

Although each deal/round in video poker is an independent event, some people believe in streaks and have a motive that they are due for something. If the player played for 2 hours and was not dealt a straight, flush, or a full house, he/she can try a run at Triple Wheel Poker. Remember nothing is due in independent outcomes/events, there can possibly be stretches a person is dealt poker hands multiple times in a few hands, when the average is once per few hundred rounds.


Edited by alpax - Today at 1:13pm
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billryan
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Quote billryan Replybullet Posted: Yesterday at 9:04pm
I watched a group of young latino guys playing this at Silverton. One of the few times I've seen young men playing VP. They were very excited about the seemingly frequent wheel spins but they were almost all bronze and for little money. Older white woman sits down and hits a gold spin first or second spin.
After she cashed out ,I sat down and threw in $20 while reading the summary of the game. A guesstimation was you'd break even on the wheel bonus but get your ass kicked on the 7/5 portion. I cashed out without playing.
If I saw it with a better payout, I might play a bit.
It's what you do and not what you say
If you're not part of the future then get out of the way
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alpax
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Quote alpax Replybullet Posted: Today at 2:38am
I totally understand the reason you would not play. The Silverton has the 8/5 Bonus Poker available.

I am not sure what 7/5 you are referring to. The 7/5 Bonus Poker Triple Wheel edition is decent, but if it is Jacks or Better / DDB, forget about it.

The wheel spins will mostly be bronze, takes a while to get gold. A good game for hit and run at best.

I had to fix an error with the number of flush combinations. I had it at 5073 when it supposed to be 5108, updated all the calculations everywhere.

Edited by alpax - Today at 2:43am
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pokerpokerpoker
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Quote pokerpokerpoker Replybullet Posted: Today at 10:47am
Well done as always Alpax. I played this once at the Wynn. I slid in a hundo and played DDB 3 play for dimes. Half way through the stake, I hit a bronze spin, collected a mediocre prize and cashed out $20 ish down - that was enough for me.
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billryan
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Quote billryan Replybullet Posted: Today at 10:59am
What impressed me was this game combined vp with a potential slot like payout.
South Point offers a Quck Quads Wheel game, where the sixth coin is for quick quads and the seventh is a wheel spin for any four of a kind.
It's what you do and not what you say
If you're not part of the future then get out of the way
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alpax
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Posts: 1824
Quote alpax Replybullet Posted: Today at 1:42pm
Originally posted by pokerpokerpoker

Well done as always Alpax. I played this once at the Wynn. I slid in a hundo and played DDB 3 play for dimes. Half way through the stake, I hit a bronze spin, collected a mediocre prize and cashed out $20 ish down - that was enough for me.


Appreciate the comment. For dime denomination, you get 1000 credits for $100, but playing for fun on this site, 1000 credits can go by quick even on 3 Play.

I did not think of it, but the Wynn is a high end resort in Vegas. Most of their better payouts are in the high limit room. Most players are not comfortable putting up a bankroll to play high stakes so it might be viable choice to play a little bit of this at that place.

Originally posted by billryan

What impressed me was this game combined vp with a potential slot like payout.
South Point offers a Quck Quads Wheel game, where the sixth coin is for quick quads and the seventh is a wheel spin for any four of a kind.


The modern VP games are evolving to a point where it provides experiences like slots, takes up two screens and potential to payout big at any moment. I heard that is one reason why DDB was one of the most popular games, because the swings are close to that of the slot but with a better return.

I heard from OMT about the Quick Quads with Wheel Poker at the Southpoint. I also think PPP also had interest in that game at the Mirage. The game is on the endangered species list, might be worth exploring while it still exists.

Like all Wheel based games, the player must be able to stomach losses in between each spin.

Edited by alpax - Today at 4:11pm
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Vman96
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Quote Vman96 Replybullet Posted: Today at 8:27pm
Originally posted by billryan

What impressed me was this game combined vp with a potential slot like payout.
South Point offers a Quck Quads Wheel game, where the sixth coin is for quick quads and the seventh is a wheel spin for any four of a kind.


The problem with this game though is that strategy is affected by the wheel spin because the wheel spin is initiated from the final hand result. But with data from the wizard of odds, strategy can be calculated correctly though.


Nice work Alpax! I have seen a couple of people on my other forums hit the gold jackpot!
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